[log started Thu Jun 10 17:57:02 1999 EDT]
Participants: Saffista, JooBay, Maggi, Al, AlTaurus, Tami, Nikki, Brett, Kat, Miles, and Adam

Saffista turns Saffista's recorder on.

Saffista shows the slide "the intro" on the projector.

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AlTaurus leaves the office for Solace
Nikki comes in for coffee and conversation
Maggi says, "Shawn Durso (also known as Maggi)""
Tami says, "Tami Youngquist is present and accounted for""
AlTaurus comes in for coffee and conversation
JooBay says, "Julie Harper""
Brett comes in for coffee and conversation
Kat comes in for coffee and conversation
Brett says, "Brett's here"
Kat says, "kat's here!!"

Saffista shows the slide "the Harlem" on the projector.

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Today I want to take some time to discuss the background reading that
we did on the Harlem Renaissance in connection with _The Blacker the
Berry_ and the Langston Hughes piece _Writers Black and White_. This
can (but doesn't have to be) a general discussion as we will be
discussing the text in detail later

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Kat says, "refresh my memory on the Langston Hughes piece please"
Saffista says, "so in general how are people enjoying "Berry""
Miles comes in for coffee and conversation
Miles says, "hi"
Kat says, "i've read up to half of part three and it's getting better,
there's juicier stuff going on"
Maggi says, "I think it's important to know that Langston Hughes did
not put much faith in the "renaissance" on the 1920's, so his comments
are rather cynical, but in my opinion, on the mark""
Tami says, "I think it is an interesting text so far""
Brett says, "Blacker the Berry was a good book. It was depressing yet
real. I felt sorry for Emma Lou"
Maggi says, "I felt empathy for Emma Lou in Parts 1&2, but by the end
of Part 4, I didn't like her too much."
Adam comes in for coffee and conversation
JooBay says, "I'm really liking The Blacker The Berry. It's ironic how
all of her life Emma Lou has been discriminated against because of her
skin color and she goes away to college to get away from it. But as
soon as she gets there, she begins to discriminate against other
blacks and feels like she only wants to socialize with certain ones.""
Kat says, "At first I couldn't stand Emma Lou's character but then I
realized she has every right to bitch and whine, look at her life."
Saffista [to Maggi]: what do you mean he didn't put much faith in it
Maggi says, "she had a large number of her own prejudices""
Kat [to JooBay]: I totally agree with you, she did get a picky attitude
Miles says, "Blacker the Berry impressed me that everyone is worried
about appearing to be too extreme in one way or another. Too black,
too white, too jewish too tall, too short . . ."
Brett says, "it is like Emma Lou was setting herself up for all these
bad relationships. she was looking for love in all the wrong places"
Miles says, "and in too many faces"
Nikki says, "Like "
Saffista [to Miles]: this is true we get people all of the time that
stress about being who they are but more specifically what they look
like
Tami says, "I think Emma came to college with too many stereotypes
already, and she expected to make friends?" "
Kat [to Brett]: that's true but she also fell in love too easily, I
think a therapist would look at her childhood
Maggi [to Saffista]: "from what I've read, Hughes did not believe that
the boom time for African American artists would be retained. He saw
this period as somewhat of an opportunity, but also as simple
entertainment to fill the time for the elitist white culture.
Saffista [to Tami]: what do you mean she had too many stereotypes?
Saffista [to Maggi]: why do you think he felt that way?
Nikki says, "Sorry hit the wrong key, Like Emma many black people tend
to discriminate against each other""
Tami says, "She wanted to meet just the blue veins of LA, what would
they want with her?""
Saffista [to Nikki]: what do we call that kind of discrimination?
Adam says, "I didn't realize there were discriminations based on shade
of skin"
Brett says, "this is very true about black people still discriminating
against eachother because some people will still only hang around and
date certain skin colored people"
Maggi says, "I think he was smart, but I have the benefit of hindsight,
he saw it at the time. Harlem was overrun by the whites seeking
entertainment, the black artists, authors, etc. were at the whim of
the "sponsors" and the white run establishment. They were not gaining
any real power."
Kat says, "I agree that yeah, she did have stereotypes based on the
treatment she endured. She only wanted to be a part of a crowd that
could shield her skin color. She figured educated people would look
beyond that, unlike in Iowa"
Saffista [to Adam]: that is something that has been present in African
American culture since the use of lighter complected slaves in easier
jobs
Adam says, "I had never heard of that until reading this"
JooBay [to Kat]: "Emma Lou had grown up being exposed to prejudice all
of her life (even though she was the butt of all the jokes) and it's
weird how she "learned" to do those same things to others."
Tami says, "I didn't realize there were those type of discriminations
either.""
Miles says, "it's funny to me that one person can be worrying about
being too white and the next person is too black. Sometimes people
critize each other for not being "black" enough. You generally don't
hear that someone isn't white enought though."
Saffista [to Miles]: very true
Maggi says, "I'd never heard of this inner-racial prejudice either"
Kat says, "I had the same enlightenment about the subject as Adam. I
also agree with Miles, it's all screwed up!!"
Nikki says, "(To Adam) Yes black people do discriminate against each
other, based on different skin complexions""
Saffista [to JooBay]: yes, that can be called INTERNALIZED RACISM
Brett says, "the way Emma Lou acted was a reflection of the way she was
brought up. She was taught that being too dark was bad and would only
be a burden to her"
[ 6:07 pm ]
Saffista [to Maggi]: INTRA-RACIAL PREJUDICE is the term
Maggi says, "and yet she discriminated against others in the same way,
based on how they spoke or carried themselves, she was a snob."
Saffista [to Maggi]: we will see alot more of it
Maggi [to Saffista]: thank you.
Nikki says, "Has anyone in the class ever heard of this type or
experienced this type of intra-racial prejudice besides me?""
Kat says, "Has this novel turned into a film, I'd like to see how it's
depicted on screen?"
Miles says, "should the goal be to blend all raced beyond recognition?
That way there aren' so many "too-toos" around. "
Tami [to Saffista]: "When I say stereotypes, I think of how Emma
labelled Hazel"
Kat says, "Good point Tami"
Maggi [to Miles]: "we'd still be too tall, too fat, too thin...too
something
Saffista says, "INTERNALIZED RACISM takes place when someone is
deiscriminated against so long and in such a way that they begin to
believe and apply the stereotypes themselves "
Adam says, "it's a way of establishing a pecking order"
Tami [to Kat]: "Thanks Kat!"
Nikki says, "(To Maggi) good point""
JooBay says, "Blacks discriminate against one another based on texture
of hair, features,etc.""
Maggi says, "what do you mean by apply the stereotypes themselves?"
Brett says, "Emma Lou claimed to have been looking for the "right group
of people" who were educated as she, but in reality she only looked at
skin color even though they treated her badly"
Adam says, "everyone has to have someone they think they are better
than"
Saffista [to Miles]: there are scholars like Orlando Patterson a black
Harvard sociologist that believe that miscegenation is the answer to
the race problem
Miles says, "internalized racism results from witnessing and enduring
racism around us?"
Maggi says, "So the Black is Beautiful pride is only a certain shade of
black?"
Brett says, "that is a superiority complex"
Kat says, "I actually was aware of that problem among blacks, I guess I
didn't think of applying it to the novel."
Saffista [to Maggi]: in certain circles yes
Saffista [to Maggi]: they start to believe that black is too black that
dark is bad light is good
Maggi [to Saffista]: what did you mean by "apply the stereotypes
themselves?"
Adam says, "so is it the darker skinned blacks who spurred the movement
to get more in touch with the African American heritage?"
Saffista [to Maggi]: beat ya
Al says, "(to Saffista) miscegenation may not be desirable to some and
it will not solve all the problems of racism""
Kat says, "I guess the surreal part was when Emma Lou was walking
towards the group of students on her first day and thought they were
smiling and being nice, while all along they were talking about her.
How two-faced, thewierd thing is I bet that happens to us all the
time, we just don't know it."
JooBay says, "I think it has just recently become more acceptable to
black and proud. You see women wearing their natural hair texture.""
Saffista [to Adam]: not neccessarily a lot of folks in the black pride
movement were light complected. It was more a question of racial pride
Maggi [to Al]: "please define miscegenation"
Tami says, "Is this skin color issue still present today?""
Nikki says, "(To Saffista) have you heard of Africans having this same
prejudice with African Americans, or tend to like the darker or
heavier women.""
Kat says, "yeah, like the ghetto booty"
Al says, "to(maggi) miscegenation is the term people used to describe
interracial marriages etc,""
Nikki says, "(To Tami) Yes very much so.""
Saffista [to Al]: this is true because there are those like H.R. writer
George Schyler who believed that if people are all the same physically
they will find something else to discriminate against. The text is
BLACK NO MORE
Miles says, "Did I hear someone say that racism is no longer a problem
in America? Or was I dreaming"
Maggi says, "thanks Al""
Brett says, "This is very evident. even some of my female friends will
not date dark-skinned guys while others will not date light-skinned
guys. I have my preference but I don't discriminate"
Kat [to Saffista]: it makes sense
Saffista [to Nikki]: yes it is true that African have discriminated
against African Americans because we are not pure blood.
Kat [to Brett]: is that discrimination or preference. I prefer dark
hair and dark eyes over blond and blue. It's all about preference, or
is it?
Tami says, "Wow, I just worry about meeting guys who are Christian, and
there are people that are looking for a specific skin tone?""
Saffista [to Tami]: unfortunately yes
Al says, "to (saffista) "i hate that term it sounds too ugly like love
to another human being was a crime""
Maggi says, "I can understand personal preference, I like dark haired,
dark eyed men, but to disregard or degredate a sector of your race
because of the "degree" of blackness is not understandable""
Brett says, "there is a line drawn between discrimination and prefernce
if you just out and out don't date someone just because of their color
and nothing else"
Kat [to Tami]: there's also the whole issue of black men dating white
women. they're looked upon as having jungle fever or selling out
their own race, right?
Nikki says, "(To Brett) I agree with you my two lighter children are
often said to be cuter by people in my race, and by browner child they
tend to not be so fast to pass compliments""
Miles says, "that's a little closed minded, but is it discrimination?"
Al says, "to ( maggi) "when it is drummed into your head lighter is
better it becomes understandable,bu not right""
Kat [to Nikki]: that's horrible, I think dark skin, especially on
children is beautiful
Saffista [to Al]: miscegenation is a term that has come to bear some
heavy cultural baggage for African Americans because it was originally
used to talk about "CRIMES" of nature that were committed by white
slave holding men in their production of mullatto children
AlTaurus says, "does internalized racisim occure in other racial
groups??""
Nikki says, "(To Brett) They often say she's cute to be dark""
Kat says, "that would make sense, God I'm feeling stupid. Can we take
a smoke break soon?"
[ 6:17 pm ]
Maggi [to Al]: "think Nazi Germany"
AlTaurus says, "true""
Al says, "(to Saffista) I understand"
Saffista [to AlTaurus]: INTERNALIZED PREJUDICE occurs in all minority
and marginalized groups unfortunately
Tami says, "I am feeling sort of stupid too, but it is interesting to
hear about issues in another race that I didn't even realize existed.""
Maggi [to Saffista]: "do you think it ONLY occurs in minority groups?
Adam says, "it happens on all social levels"
Kat [to Maggi]: look at how any woman is expected to be perfect, isn't
that a form of internalized prejudice?
Saffista [to Maggi]: no I think that for example wommin tend to be
victims of the beauty myth
Saffista [to Kat]: good catch\
Maggi says, "now that's the truth"
Saffista says, "don't all wommin want to look like Barbie"
Kat says, "Being a big girl, I can get it"
Maggi says, "could I just have her hips & waist?"
Saffista says, "that is the way that society has trained us to think
about beautiful wommin"
Tami says, "or how about the Barbie they took off the market b-cuz of
her tatoo?""
Kat says, "what?????"
Brett says, "this comes from all the adveritisements being forced into
your mind of the way you should and should not look "
JooBay says, "Barbie had a tattoo?""
Saffista [to Tami]: socially unacceptable ... now all little girls will
want to run out and get one
Nikki says, "They were suppose to take away some of her curves and
bust, but looking at my daughter's dolls one can't tell""
Tami says, "I read about it in the paper, Matel got in trouble for that
one!""
Miles says, " I keep hearing that society has trained me to think this
or that, but biology tells me other wise, Barbie is hot"
Kat says, "I guess my tatoo can be added to my list of physical
imperections then."
Adam says, "or the divorced barbie who comes with half of ken's stuff"
Maggi says, "So, as we feel substandard because we're not Barbie, the
darker African American feels substandard because their not "light
brown"?"
Maggi [to Adam]: "Ken never had any stuff"
Al says, "(to maggi) some groups think the lighter the better""
Saffista [to Adam]: I heard a joke about the $500 divorced Barbie that
was so expensive because she came with Ken's stuff
Saffista says, "wasn't Ken always driving Barbie's pink car???"
Nikki says, "Oh no I do not think all African Americans which to be
light brown""
Miles says, " i know pam anderson is not a good person, I wouldn't want
to date her, but I don't need anyone to tell me how I feel about her
in a bathing suit"
Saffista [to Miles]: but she had to pay for it and that is a part of
the beauty myth
Tami says, "Miles you dirty minded male!""
JooBay says, "Mattel is coming out with a Brandy doll, so I guess
little black girls may have a more realistic doll to play with.""
Miles says, "not so dirty, just honest"
Maggi [to Saffista]: "which part of the beauty myth...we need to have
alot of money too?
Al says, "(to nikki) i meant in general and not all people""
Saffista [to JooBay]: this is true. when I was a child Black Barbies
were simply white Barbies painted brown...they even still had pink
lipstick
Saffista says, "people's views on positive self image have changed so
that now dolls look more realistic"
Kat says, "why does it have to be Brandy, it couldn't be a regular
black doll. One of my friends wanted a black cabbage patch doll when
they were that crazy gotta have one dolls. She's white but she wanted
a black doll, she still has it from 6th grade."
Saffista [to Maggi]: no you just have to be able to pay for the body
parts
JooBay says, "And the little black dolls had the fine hair and small
lips, noses.""
Saffista [to JooBay]: exactly
Maggi [to Saffista]: you are the teacher and I hate to dispute your
opinion, however, as the mother of a 4 year old daughter..have you
seen the dolls in ToysRUs..not too realistic.
Al says, "(to JooBay) much like Michael Jackson""
Adam says, "GI Joe is pretty realistic"
Saffista [to Maggi]: there are some dolls like the Kenya doll that are
not only realistically created but Afrocentric
Maggi says, "Why are the black dolls not resembling black little girls?"
Nikki says, "My daughter is five and does not realize the difference
between the two, yes one is white and one is black, but all she cares
about is if they have all their body parts, and she can comb their
hair""
Kat says, "how did we get on this tangent? Let's go smoke!!!!"
Saffista [to Adam]: all men want to destroy
Miles says, "The new GI Joe doll has 27 inch bicepts, how about boys
and their concept of manhood, How will they measure up "
Adam says, "i had a 27 inch waist a LONG time ago"
Saffista [to Kat]: not necessarily a tangent it is the same thing that
Emma Lou is going throuh in BLACKER
Miles says, "they probably won't care. "
Nikki says, "I don't know it drives my husband crazy that my two year
old son plays with my daughter's Barbie dolls""
Kat [to Miles]: that's true but I don't think it equates with the
female perceptions of their bodies
JooBay says, "That's why they're coming out with Brandy. All the money
African American pay for a Barbie doll, they can pay for a Brandy
doll, with black features. Little girls love Brandy anyway, so why
not?""
Saffista [to Miles]: good point we get the myth of the 90 pound
weakling that has to grow up to be Arnold
Saffista [to Miles]: "I'll be back!!"
Miles says, "it drives me crazy that any children play with toys. They
should be left in the package so they can appreciate in value"
Maggi says, "Lets make Brandy richer instead of Mr. or Ms. Mattel""
Adam says, "everyone gets too wrapped up in listening to someone else
tell them what they should look like"
[ 6:27 pm ]
Kat [to Miles]: you're an idiot
Nikki says, "(To JooBay) oh great another doll for me to spend my money
on, what's the target date Christmas""
Al says, "(to Saffista) Arnold isn't that much too measure up to with
that stupid accent he has""
Tami [to Miles]: "you are making friends left and right!"
Kat says, "I love Arnold, don't knock the accent"
Saffista [to Adam]: stronger willed people are often able to ignore it
but those who are already insecure like EMMA LOU have problems with
myths of beauty
Miles says, "huh"
Maggi [to Nikki]: of course it'll be Christmas and they'll only make
300 of them so we'll all run around like idiots trying to find one
(think tickle me elmo)
AlTaurus says, "FURBY""
Al says, "(to Kat ) duh hello my name es Arnuld!"
Adam says, "Emma Lou's problems started with her mother rejecting her"
Maggi says, "her mother was evil"
Kat says, "I think we need to discuss this vocally because Emma Lou had
some differing actions and feelings going on throughout the book
though"
Miles says, "people have problems of many sorts, it is impossible to
protect them. I was strong willed. I just didn't make the connect"
Saffista [to Adam]: true because she didn't look like the rest of the
family
JooBay says, "Her whole family was evil.""
Tami says, "Not only her mother, but her grandmother who made excuses
for her too.""
Nikki says, "(To Saffista) so are you saying that inter racial
prejudicies is brought about by that person's one insecurities""
Saffista [to Nikki]: No I said Emma was insecure
Brett says, "not only her mother but everyone else rejected her like
the people in her school"
Adam says, "there is some truth to that though"
Miles says, "her grandmother was pretty odd. She used to hang out and
find people to feel superior to "
Kat says, "In the Black community, is it also common for mothers and
fathers to feel this way about their children , siblings, relatives?"
Brett says, "there is the constant pressure to fit in "
Maggi [to Saffista]: do you think self confident persons deal with the
inter racial prejudices better?
Adam says, "the most insecure people are typically the most racist
people"
Saffista [to Brett]: WAS EMMA LOU actually rejected by everyone?
PONDER THIS QUESTION OVER BREAK AND WE WILL COME BACK AND FIGHT THIS
OUT ORALLY!!!
Brett says, "self confident peole may just hide their feelings "
Miles says, "self confident people deal with most things better than
insecure people"
Kat [to Saffista]: thanks, It just feels so impersonal and difficult to
understand where people are coming from:)
Saffista says, "ALL RIGHT FOLKS BREAK TIME DO NOT DISCONNECT!!"
AlTaurus has disconnected.
JooBay says, "The Blacker the Berry" kind of made me think about Spike
Lee's School Days""
Al says, "it seems that even self-confident people have problems when
they are surrounded all the time by negative messages""
[log closed]